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Which of Plato's dialogs is concerned with numbers and mysticism?
The Platonic dialogue concerned with numbers and mysticism, referred-to as "Plato's number," is enigmatically mentioned by Plato in his dialogue the Republic. The passage is notoriously difficult to understand, and there is no real agreement about the meaning or the value of the number. It has also been called the "geometrical number" or the "nuptial number" (the "number of the bride").
In Plato's Republic, specifically at section 546b, a cryptic reference to a "perfect number" appears in the context of discussing the ideal timing for divine and mortal procreation. The passage suggests that there is a mathematical harmony or cycle governing such events, described in terms of "augmentations dominating and dominated" that reach a state of balance through "three distances and four limits" of assimilation and dissimilation, waxing and waning.
This "perfect number" has been the subject of much scholarly speculation and debate. It is often referred to as "Plato's number," and it seems to relate to a broader philosophical interest in numerology and cosmic order, which also appears in other Platonic dialogues such as the Timaeus.
... Timaeus is the title I was trying to remember in which Plato expounds the notion that we choose our lives, the when and where we are born
The “Myth of Er”, found in Book X of Plato's Republic, presents a vivid account of the afterlife and the soul's journey through reincarnation. According to the myth, “Er” is a soldier who dies in battle, and revives after twelve days to recount his experiences in the afterlife. His tale serves as a philosophical allegory to reinforce the idea that the soul is immortal and that moral choices in life have consequences beyond death.
In the myth, souls are judged after death and either ascend to a heavenly realm for a thousand years or descend into the earth for punishment, depending on the justice of their earthly lives. After this period, souls gather at a mysterious crossroads where they are given the opportunity to choose their next life. This choice is a crucial moment of free will, as each soul selects its future existence—whether human or animal—depending on its character and past experiences.
Plato emphasizes that the quality of this choice depends largely on the wisdom and understanding the soul has cultivated in previous lives. Those who lived virtuously but without philosophical insight may make poor choices, while those who suffered in life may approach the decision with greater caution and wisdom. The myth underscores the importance of cultivating virtue and wisdom, as these traits guide the soul toward higher reincarnations.
The process of reincarnation in the Myth of Er includes a symbolic representation of cosmic order through the "Spindle of Necessity," a celestial device tended by the Fates. After choosing a new life, souls drink from the River of Forgetfulness, erasing their memories of the afterlife, and are reborn. This cycle reflects Plato’s broader philosophical themes of the soul’s immortality and the ethical responsibility of individuals in shaping their destinies through free will.
Plato’s belief in reincarnation is further supported by other dialogues such as the Phaedo and the Phaedrus, where the soul’s cyclical journey is discussed in metaphorical and philosophical terms. While the Myth of Er is presented as a story, it encapsulates key ideas about justice, moral responsibility, and the soul’s eternal nature, which are central to Plato’s philosophical system.
... perhaps it was the Phaedo
You're on the right track! The Phaedo is one of Plato’s most famous dialogues and is centrally concerned with the immortality of the soul, the nature of death, and the philosopher’s relationship to the body and the material world. However, it does not directly address the idea of choosing one’s birth or life circumstances in the way the Myth of Er in the Republic does.
Still, the Phaedo does touch on themes related to reincarnation and the soul’s journey after death, particularly in its closing passages. In the dialogue, Socrates, before drinking the hemlock, discusses how true philosophers are always pursuing death and how the soul, when freed from the body, may attain its highest state of knowledge and purity.
Here’s a brief summary of relevant elements in the Phaedo:
1. Soul/Body Dualism: Socrates argues that the soul is immortal and that philosophers should welcome death as a liberation of the soul from the distractions of the body.
2. Cyclical Argument: One of his arguments for immortality is that life and death are part of a cycle—just as waking comes from sleep, life comes from death, and so on.
3. Hints of Reincarnation: While not as explicit as in the Republic, Socrates suggests that souls may return to new lives, especially if they remain attached to the physical world.
If you were thinking of a dialogue where Plato explores reincarnation and the soul’s choices affecting its rebirth, the Republic’s “Myth of Er” is the most direct source. But if you were recalling a dialogue focused on the soul’s immortality and its philosophical preparation for death, then the "Phaedo" is probably the one.
... the “Myth of Er” contrasts a hypothetical after-life with pre-life conditions, or past lives
Plato’s Myth of Er, found in Book X of The Republic, offers a vivid account of both the afterlife and the pre-life, emphasizing the moral implications of human choices across lifetimes. According to the myth, Er, a soldier who died in battle, returned to life and recounted his journey through the afterlife. He described how souls are judged after death based on their earthly deeds—just souls ascending to a blissful realm, while unjust souls were punished for their misdeeds
After a period of reward or punishment, souls prepare for reincarnation. They are given the opportunity to choose their next life from a variety of human and animal existences. This choice is guided by their experiences in the previous life, with some souls making wise decisions and others repeating past mistakes. Before rebirth, they drink from the river Lethe, causing them to forget their past lives. Er, however, was exempt from this and retained his memories, allowing him to return to his body and share his experience with others.
This myth underscores Plato’s belief in the immortality of the soul and the cyclical nature of existence. It also highlights the philosophical importance of living a just and virtuous life, as the choices made in one life influence the conditions of the next. Importantly, the myth serves as a moral allegory, reinforcing the idea that justice has intrinsic value beyond any external rewards or punishments.
In contrast to the afterlife, the pre-life is not as explicitly detailed in the myth. However, the concept of reincarnation implies a prior existence of the soul before birth, a theme explored more directly in Plato’s "Phaedo," where he discusses the soul’s pre-existence and its entrapment in the body as part of a continuous cycle of learning and moral development.
Thus, the "Myth of Er" functions not only as a cosmological narrative but also as a philosophical argument for ethical living, grounded in the belief that the soul’s journey transcends a single lifetime.
... "They are given the opportunity to choose their next life" is the proposition I was trying to recall in reference to free choice, and Plato's observation that some choose very inferior lives to return to
You're recalling a key philosophical point from Plato's Republic, specifically in the Myth of Er at the end of Book X.
In this myth, after souls are judged and have undergone reward or punishment for their past lives, they are given the opportunity to choose their next life before being reborn. This moment is central to Plato’s ethical and metaphysical vision, as it emphasizes personal responsibility and the role of choice in shaping one's destiny across multiple incarnations.
Plato observes that this choice is not made lightly, but it is also not always wise. He notes that some souls, especially those who had experienced great suffering in their previous lives, might choose a life of apparent ease or luxury out of fear or ignorance—only to find themselves burdened with worse conditions in the future. Conversely, others who had enjoyed great success without understanding its true value might foolishly choose the same kind of life again, leading to their downfall.
Plato attributes these poor choices to a lack of philosophical understanding, particularly the kind cultivated through the pursuit of wisdom and virtue. Those who have not developed insight into the true nature of the good may be misled by appearances, selecting lives that seem attractive but are ultimately regrettable.
This idea is captured in this passage from the Republic:
> "And when they chose, they were no longer the same man that they had been before, but each one took the nature according to the choice which he made" (Republic 620d).
This underscores the transformative power of choice, that a soul’s character and future existence are shaped not by fate alone, but by the decisions it makes when given the freedom to choose.
In short, the Myth of Er illustrates Plato’s belief in moral responsibility, reincarnation, and the importance of philosophical wisdom in guiding choices that determine the quality of one’s life—both in this world and the next.
... stated positively, return lives improve with experience and wisdom
In Plato's Myth of Er, souls are depicted as undergoing a process of improvement through experience and wisdom across multiple lifetimes. After death, souls are judged based on their actions in life and either ascend to a heavenly realm for reward or descend into the earth for punishment. Following this judgment, they are reborn into new lives, with the opportunity to choose their next existence based on the wisdom gained from previous experiences.
The myth emphasizes that the choices made by souls are influenced by their past lives, particularly the lessons learned from suffering or virtuous deeds. For instance, souls returning from the underworld often choose better, more virtuous lives, guided by the bitter experiences of their previous existence. This suggests that the soul can improve over time through reflection and the acquisition of wisdom.
Moreover, the myth highlights the importance of wisdom in making the right choices. The soul of Odysseus, for example, chooses the life of a private man with no cares, indicating a preference for a life free from the burdens of power and ambition. This choice is made not out of necessity but as a result of wisdom and self-awareness, implying that the soul's improvement is tied to its ability to make informed and thoughtful decisions.
Ultimately, the Myth of Er presents a vision of the soul's journey as one of potential growth and moral development. The cycle of rebirth allows for continuous learning and self-improvement, with the ultimate goal being the cultivation of a just and virtuous character. This process is not guaranteed, however, as the myth also acknowledges the role of chance and the inherent complexity of human nature in shaping one's path toward improvement.
... one final question; if the soul drinks the cup of forgetfulness, how does it gain from “the bitter experiences of their previous existence”
Excellent question — this is one of the central philosophical tensions in Plato's Myth of Er (Republic X), and scholars have long debated it.
The Paradox:
In the myth, souls preparing for reincarnation drink from the River Lethe, the "River of Forgetfulness," which causes them to lose all memory of their past lives. After this, they are reborn into new bodies and lives. Yet Plato also suggests that souls choose their next life based on past experiences, implying that they must remember something in order to make an informed choice. It is a paradox:
- If they forget everything, how can they possibly learn from past mistakes?
- If they retain some memory or disposition, how does this align with the literal description of drinking from Lethe?
Interpretations and Possible Resolutions:
1. Forgetfulness Applies After the Choice
Some scholars suggest that souls drink from Lethe after choosing their next life, not before. This would allow them to use memory and wisdom from past lives in making their choice — Odysseus, for example, chooses a quiet life "with no cares" because he remembers the burdens of power and war.
> “First, then, they drank... and each one slept” (Republic 621a).
This timing implies that forgetfulness comes only after the choice is made, preserving the moral significance of the soul's decision.
2. Disposition, Not Memory, Carries Over
Another interpretation is that while explicit memories of past lives are lost, the moral character and tendencies developed in previous lives influence the soul’s choices. In other words, wisdom and virtue may persist as traits, even if specific memories do not. This aligns with Plato’s broader view in the Phaedo and Phaedrus, where the soul’s education and moral development shape its condition across lifetimes, even if not consciously remembered.
3. Philosophy as the Key to Remembering
Plato also suggests that philosophy and education are forms of recollection (anamnēsis), especially in dialogues like the Meno and the Phaedo. The idea is that the soul already knows the truth, but must be guided to remember it through dialectic and reason. So, even after drinking from Lethe, the soul might relearn lessons through philosophical inquiry, not by recalling specific events, but by rediscovering universal truths and virtues like justice, courage, and moderation.
Conclusion
Plato’s “Myth of Er” presents a symbolic rather than strictly logical account of the soul’s journey. The forgetfulness caused by Lethe does not necessarily negate the soul’s ability to learn from past lives, especially if the soul retains moral disposition or character, ot the choice of life occurs before full forgetfulness, or philosophical recollection allows the soul to rediscover truth in each life.
Thus, the myth balances mysticism, ethics, and epistemology, emphasizing that wisdom and virtue are cumulative -even if memory is not.
> “And when they had chosen as they pleased, they marched in order to Lachesis... and after that, they drank and were carried away like stars to be born.” (Plato, Republic 621a)
This poetic ending reinforces the idea that while the soul forgets, its choices — and the character behind them — still reflect the cumulative journey of the soul.